Anyways, I'm not from "America", but if you're celebrating thanksgiving. Consider maybe not next year.
The holiday is tied up with genocide and cannot be uncoupled from that. I don't think it is something to celebrate.
If you want to start reading up, start here:
"All of us, regardless of background, should be horrified by genocide, as much as we would be of other facts that we don’t shut down discourse on through self-indulgent projections of innocence, like the world being round despite the fact that some insist is not so. We should all be enraged."
- this a quote from the linked article
@siem have you ever been to a Thanksgiving celebration? because well you are undoubtedly correct about the history and lack of education around it, you are also missing important first party context. which is probably why you are so Cavalier about telling us to completely discard one of the celebrations that we look forward to during the most depressing part of the year. thanksgiving is a way to bring people together, to celebrate food, to be humble and thankful. suggesting that we just throw that all in the trash, it just seems like an oversimplification. there are several potential paths forward here, with consequences and advantages to weigh for each. but discarding it completely seems like something a bunch of shortsighted, mainly white Twitter liberals would scream four from the rooftops for a month with a catchy hashtag that makes them feel like they're doing something important, only to pat them selves on the back for doing an anti-racism despite this doing next to nothing to actually help natives with their real problems day to day.
@siem I think the main problem here is education. The way it's dumbed down and simplified in classrooms is gross. they just pave over all of the inconvenient facts with some niceties that mean nothing to make white people feel better about themselves. and the funny thing is, the celebration that Thanksgiving is based on was actually a moment of unity and merriment between whites and natives, it's the entire surrounding history, even the immediately before and immediately after that is the real problem. The exploitation, manipulation, and selfishness. so I say we take Thanksgiving back and make it just as much if not more about natives than we do about colonizers. But the holiday itself and what it stands for these days is important I believe, Especially as we grow farther and farther apart from each other and more self absorbed as a society.
@Superfreq I've got my own racist colonial holiday in the Netherlands that I'm not celebrating, even though it was always nice coming together for it.
In the end, I see people saying "don't celebrate this, it's hurts to see, it can't be redeemed". And as a white person I don't think it's my place to say that we can reclaim it in some way, that's not my place.
What I'm trying here is just to echo the call from Indigenous folks I see around. I think we should listen to them first and foremost - and then change our behaviour accordingly.
We can find another reason to get together, like Christmas or the solstice.
How many indigenous people actually want it gone though? If it's just a loud minority, that doesn't necessarily mean they represent the majority. It's hard to say, which is why we should do this officially. The problem with that of course is that many natives have a distrust of anything governmental, especially data gathering wise. And I can't blame them. Regardless though, it can't just be people on social media. Hell many people on reservations still don't have access to the internet even.
And yeah, I see what you're saying about not having the right to say we can reclaim it. Which is why I said if they decide as a majority that they want it gone I'll respect that. But until then, I am going to mention other potential options. Which isn't the same as saying no to their wishes, since the question hasn't even been properly asked yet. It's simply pointing out alternatives, which I'm sure that native folks have thought of as well. I won't hide the fact that I'd be pretty disappointed if we got rid of it without replacing it with anything, I'm allowed to express that. Doesn't mean I wouldn't do it if I felt it was the right thing to do though.
But hey, good on ya for putting your money where you're mouth is and also not celebrating a holiday where you are. I assume that's the one where blackface historically gets used allot that you're talking about? I can't remember the name.
Thanksgiving - sinterklaas blackface holiday
@Superfreq yep it's sinterklaas, the blackface holiday.
Actually the racist carricatures are, with withe people in the lead, getting just a few less racist stereotypes so white people can feel good about still celebrating it, while the same Black folks who were calling that first thing a racist caricature, are now still calling this the same.
Here it has always been a "loud minority" who were saying something the rest was afraid to say, and white folks here didn't want to recognize until quite recently.
@siem ironically enough, I also tend to notice some somewhat insulting perceptions that tend to crop up when talking about Thanksgiving in a modern, more educated context. The first being that the colonist tricked the natives into helping them. In some ways I believe this is probably true, but we also know now that much of the reason that they were assisted was for political reasons. they were seen as a potential ally and trade partner in the future that could provide rare resources like guns and steal tools. The chief of the tribe who had contact with them the most wanted to keep them to himself as a political bargaining chip against other tribes in the future. The second major one I see is that there is no consensus among natives about Thanksgiving. The tribe who was mostly affected by that colony tends to have strong views on it even today from what I've heard, but The diversity among native tribes is vast, Especially between major US regions. there is not even consensus among the Navajo and Apache folks I have briefly talked with about Thanksgiving. Some of them don't care one way or the other. Some of them are happy for their friends even if they despise the historical revisionism. Some of them even go celebrate with their friends because they take it at face value. some of them want nothing to do with it and refused to even talk about it. there is a lot more general consensus about Columbus Day then there is about Thanksgiving, but even then it seems disingenuous to boil down The enormous variety of native culture into one conglomerate.
@siem if all options are presented and The majority of natives still want Thanksgiving gone completely, then I will not celebrate it anymore. and if replacing it with a holiday that celebrates some of the more positive aspects of modern Thanksgiving is seen as trying to make the problem go away, then I will reluctantly also not celebrate that one either. but they are the ones who should make the decision. I applaud any effort to help educate people about the real history of Thanksgiving, but i'm not going to give much credence to someone completely on the outside asking us to discard it out of hand. That said however, I do appreciate that you pointed out that you are not American.
@Superfreq I know I probably won't convince anyone, even more so as an outsider.
But I really hope people will consider not celebrating thanksgiving as an option - because reading the stories of some Indigenous folks about how they experience this, and what they think about it, is enough to convince me.
@siem Are you going to next say we shouldn't celebrate Christmas because Christianity is full of crusades which killed hundreds of thousands of people and regularly had torture going along with it for seemingly no reason other than God? I swear, probably every holiday has something to do with genocide and I'm talking about every important one. Veterans Day, for example, since killing people in war is still killing but somehow its all right because it's Americans doing the killing. Where does the slope end?
@rooktallon I don't care much for Christmas, but Veterands Day could probably go. Honestly, would could celebrate things like the abolition of slavery and make that the biggest holiday there is, or other historic events like women getting the vote. That sounds a lot better to me than celebrating war veterans.
Let's shape the future towards I highest ideals!
@siem Fair enough. But I'm not going to not outright eat myself into an early grave on this day because genocide. I mean I get it, but honestly Thanksgiving is basically an excuse to eat whatever i want with literally no judgement.
A fun, happy little Mastodon/Hometown instance.